One word, and the whole world explodes interview with Libyan leader Muammar el-Qaddafi of Khomeini, Idi Amin and a third world war
demonstrators stormed before last weekend, the U.S. embassy in Tripoli and set fire to them. The United States then threatened to break off diplomatic relations with Libya. Shortly before, interviewed the Italian star reporter Oriana Fallaci, the Libyan leader Gaddafi. He announced a "violent" reactions.
Gaddafi: I have bad news: there is movement on the American military bases in Europe, especially Germany, Greece and Turkey. Die Amerikaner machen Fallschirmjäger, Panzerfahrzeuge, Raketen, Gas, Neutronenbomben oder so was ähnliches einsatzbereit. Ja, es ist ernst. Wenn dies wirklich der Anfang des Dritten Weltkriegs ist, müssen wir unter allen Umständen vermeiden, in ein Debakel zu stürzen.
Eine iranische Delegation ist gerade hier in Tripolis angekommen, Männer, die Chomeini sehr nahestehen, Männer, auf die Chomeini hört. Ich werde ihnen eine persönliche Botschaft an den Imam mitgeben und ihn bitten, die Geiseln freizulassen.
Wir werden nicht neutral bleiben, wenn dem Iran etwas zustößt. Die Iraner sind unsere Brüder. Und wir kleinen Länder können eine sehr weitreichende Front gegen America form.
Oriana Fallaci: Even I have bad news, sir. The U.S. embassy in Pakistan was burned to the ground, six embassy employees were killed. Attacks against U.S. © "Corriere della Sera. was
messages is also available in India, Bangladesh, Turkey, the U.S. embassy in Tehran has been mined.
Gaddafi (laughs heartily): an international revolution against America!
Oriana Fallaci: It seems more to be an international challenge, also organized a very good.
Gaddafi: I said, international revolution. Such things happen because people hate America. We are experiencing an explosion of Hasses gegen Amerika. Jeder haßt Amerika, jeder, nicht nur die islamischen Länder. Denn jeder ist oder war von Amerika unterdrückt und will sich früher oder später gegen Amerika erheben. Selbst in den Ländern, die nicht islamisch sind.
ORIANA FALLACI: Die Studenten, die die Geiseln gefesselt und mit verbundenen Augen in Teheran festhalten, haben gesagt, sie würden die Geiseln vor Gericht stellen -- selbst wenn der Schah sterben sollte oder ihnen übergeben würde. Scheint Ihnen das keine Provokation zu sein?
GADDAFI: Nein, ich bezweifle, daß es einen Prozeß geben wird, wenn etwas Positives mit dem Schah geschieht. Auf jeden Fall müssen Sie verstehen, daß so etwas in Revolutionen occurs. Revolutions are sometimes chaotic. Iran has not even a government. The students do whatever they want without government control. And that means that not the incident with the message can be viewed as a normal conflict between states. If I were replacing the Americans, I would not react like her. I would remember how the U.S. policy on Iran looked like before this all began.
Oriana Fallaci: It is not true that the students act solely on your own, because there is a kind of government. There is also Khomeini, who could end the drama with a single word, but instead the situation on purpose worsens. And finally, there is no justification for the appointment of a message that she was American, Soviet, Chinese, Italian and Libyan, or whatever. A message is, as you well know, as extraterritorial. It is such a thing as international law.
Gaddafi: I disagree agree with you. For if members of the missions do something that is incompatible with their duties, what their host country, or relations with that country is detrimental, it can cause reactions such as in Tehran. Messages may be granted no diplomatic immunity when they do something.
Oriana Fallaci: Colonel, this is the position of Khomeini, who claims the U.S. embassy in Tehran had been an espionage center. Do you approve of the events in Iran fully and completely?
Gaddafi: Well ... I personally am against hostage taking, especially among members of a diplomatic representative. Messages are protected by their host countries. So much for the general. But what happens in Iran affects the Iranians and anyone else I am very glad that the Iranian revolution has taken place and that it was successful in two respects: First, the Shah was thrown out. I would even go so far as to say that my role has been strengthened by the revolutionary Iranian revolution. And I repeat, daß wir im Falle eines amerikanischen Angriffs gegen den Iran, auch ungeachtet dieser Episode, nicht mit gefalteten Händen dasitzen werden.
ORIANA FALLACI: Was meinen Sie mit "ungeachtet dieser Episode"? Alles hängt von dieser Episode ab! Alles begann mit dieser "Episode"!
GADDAFI: Ich sagte Ihnen bereits, Sie müssen das Motiv für die Geiselnahme verstehen.
ORIANA FALLACI: Das Motiv ist Erpressung. Gut, eine Erpressung, die ihre Wurzeln in dem bedauerlichen Schutz hat, den die Amerikaner dem Schah immer gaben. Trotzdem ist es Erpressung. Chomeini will seinen Feind Resa Pahlewi zurückhaben, um ihn hinzurichten. Sagen Sie mir, Herr Oberst: Wenn Uganda Sie aufforderte, Idi Amin deliver - would you do it?
Gaddafi: When Amin was here, I would think about an answer to your question. But since he is not here, the comparison is meaningless.
Oriana Fallaci: Amin's here, sir. We know that amine here is hiding that he's your guest. He lives in a villa with park and swimming pool near Tripoli. He is here with two of his many wives and ten of his numerous children. He was even interviewed by the Philippine journalists that you were arrested as a punishment.
Gaddafi: No ... Amin is not here ... Perhaps this journalist has interviewed him during a visit.
Oriana Fallaci: Well, listen! What a visit? If you call this a "visit", then the Shah in the United States is just visiting. So once again: If you begged Uganda, Amin deliver, which here is to "visit", you would extradite him or not?
Gaddafi: I ... I firmly believe that every person has the right to ask in every country in every part of the world for asylum. But I stick with it, that the Iranians have the right to demand the return of the Shah. In other words, I am for the Iranian revolution against the Shah, and I hope he ends up in the hands of the Iranian people, as he deserves it. But while he has every Right to ask in America or elsewhere for asylum. But anyway, the case of which you speak, is different because I am not wipe in the internal affairs of other countries.
Oriana Fallaci: You mentioned the possibility of a world war. What have you and the President of North Yemen, to say the non-communist Yemen, today discussed with each other? And what it has to mean that the President of North Yemen was immediately after a visit of Foreign Minister and the Chief of the Political Bureau of South Yemen, which the communist Yemen, with you?
Gaddafi: the fact that came to visit the president of North Yemen and South Yemen, the representative of me, nichts Besonderes zu bedeuten. Der Nordjemen ist auch ein revolutionäres Land: Es ist für unsere Revolution. Der Nordjemen ist auch gegen die Vereinigten Staaten.
ORIANA FALLACI: Aha. Wahrscheinlich haben Sie doch über eine Absprache geredet, keine amerikanischen Schiffe ins Rote Meer zu lassen, und ferner noch über die Möglichkeit diskutiert, den Dollar zu boykottieren und Amerika vom Erdöl abzuschneiden. Stimmt es, daß Libyen bereit ist, den Aufruf des Iran an die arabischen Länder zu befolgen, den Dollar als Zahlungsmittel für Erdöl künftig abzulehnen?
GADDAFI: Ja, der Ersatz des Dollar durch andere feste Währungen wird von den erdiilexportierenden arabischen Ländern seriously considered. Libya investigated this possibility in detail, together with Iran, Iraq and Algeria. make Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the Emirates it as well.
Oriana Fallaci: the, Libya and other countries could Does Iran in other ways mimic, such as by adopting for taking money from American banks?
Gaddafi: Yes, that we could possibly resolve it. This will have the Arab countries, the money in U.S. banks, drawn equally serious consideration. We are working towards collective action. It was also necessary: \u200b\u200bWe have moved America more than enough time left to us to respect at last. But America continues to hold us for fools, makes us continue to cope with, sponsored by Israel. We have the full. We act in self-defense.
Oriana Fallaci: Colonel, it's a known fact that American banks to Libyan much money is more than Iranian money. What happens when the Americans freeze this money as it did with Iran?
Gaddafi: You have no right to do that! You can not do that!
Oriana Fallaci: Yes, they can. And if Libya is trying to pull its funds, they will do it. They have announced that they would do it. What do you think? * The Photo should the Iranian Washington ordered the arrest of students by U.S. police officers ~ show has been added to reality, but in 1968 a third-world demonstration.
Gaddafi: That would be an act of aggression! Not a justifiable act of aggression! It would undermine America's reputation further, he would stir up more hatred against America. And in this case, we would then react brutally. We are also able to prepare America to face serious difficulties.
Oriana Fallaci: By selling to the Americans no longer your oil, which accounts for nine percent of U.S. oil imports?
Gaddafi: Yes, sure. This could happen und am Ende wird es auch passieren.
ORIANA FALLACI: Jeder weiß, daß Amerika einer Ihrer besten Kunden ist, vielleicht Ihr bester überhaupt, da fast alle Ölförderungsanlagen in den Händen amerikanischer Techniker sind.
GADDAFI: Ich sagte Ihnen bereits, daß es passieren könnte, daß es passieren wird, falls Amerika uns in jene Richtung drängt. Es hängt von Amerika ab, von seiner Haltung uns gegenüber, den Arabern gegenüber, im Hinblick nicht nur auf den Iran, sondern auch auf den Konflikt mit Israel. Wir erwarten von Amerika nicht, daß es auf unserer Seite steht, aber wir erwarten, daß es neutral bleibt. Falls nicht, schlagen wir zurück mit wirtschaftlichen Hieben jeder Art, auch mit der Weigerung, unser Öl zu liefern.
ORIANA FALLACI: Sie wissen sehr wohl, daß Amerika Israel weiter unterstützen wird. Und was den Iran anlangt, da wissen Sie sehr wohl, daß Carter etwas unternimmt, falls die Geiseln nicht befreit, sondern vor Gericht gestellt und eventuell zum Tode verurteilt werden, falls nur eine Geisel getötet wird, nur eine einzige. Sie selbst haben gesagt, es tue sich was auf amerikanischen Militärstützpunkten, und wir alle wissen, daß amerikanische Kriegsschiffe Kurs auf den Persischen Golf genommen haben.
GADDAFI: Also ist es klar, daß wir uns darauf zubewegen, die Verweigerung von Öllieferungen als politische Waffe einzusetzen. Undoubtedly, the moment when to use our oil as a political weapon. We're at it, we will deny them.
Oriana Fallaci: When? Is this a matter of days, weeks, months?
Gaddafi: We have no pre-established deadlines. It depends on the oil engineers, the economists, the Libyan people, must advise the issue at its public meeting. At this point I can say is that we are moving in that direction.
Oriana Fallaci: If you meet the embargo and European countries?
Gaddafi: It depends on the European states. Who supports us, is regarded as a friend wer sich auf die Seite Amerikas stellt, als unser Feind. Wir sind die Freunde derer, die uns lieben, wir sind die Feinde jener, die uns hassen. Wir helfen niemandem, der dem amerikanischen Imperialismus hilft.
ORIANA FALLACI: Sie reden von den USA, als sei Amerika Hitlers Deutschland. Finden Sie das nicht ein bißchen übertrieben und ungerecht?
GADDAFI: Wir Araber stehen unter amerikanischer Vorherrschaft. Wer immer unter der Vorherrschaft eines anderen Landes steht, wird schlecht von diesem Land sprechen. Vietnam zum Beispiel wird sich gegen China aussprechen.
ORIANA FALLACI: Vietnam wird aber nicht von den Chinesen beherrscht, die Sowjets stehen in Vietnam. Aber wo wir schon bei der Sache sind: Ihr Land nennt sich blockfrei, und das heißt -- oder sollte heißen -, keinem der beiden Blöcke, keinem der beiden Imperialismen zu dienen. Warum eigentlich sprechen Sie immer von der Sowjet-Union als einem Land ohne Schuld, ohne Hintergedanken?
GADDAFI: Ich wiederhole, ich beurteile die Dinge aufgrund meiner Erfahrung. Meine Erfahrungen im Hinblick auf die Sowjet-Union sind nicht negativ gewesen. Hätte sich die Sowjet-Union Libyen gegenüber imperialistisch verhalten, dann hätte ich sie auch imperialistisch genannt. Aber die Sowjet-Union ist unser Freund.
ORIANA FALLACI: Ah ja. Abgesehen von den Waffen, welche die Sowjet-Union Ihnen fortwährend liefert, diese zweitausendfünfhundert Panzer etwa, deren Sinn and one purpose in a country with a population of two and a half million does not really understands, except that is how this friendship is manifested?
Gaddafi: In every way, in every sense of the word. Added to this is that the Soviet Union is on the side of the Arabs against Israel. We view this as an anti-imperialist attitude.
Oriana Fallaci: Some time ago you said that there was only a means to negotiate with the Americans: the gun ...
Gaddafi: I spoke of colonized peoples like the Palestinians.
Oriana Fallaci: But the Palestinians but not by the Americans "colonized".
Gaddafi: And if sie das sind. Sie sind es indirekt, wie viele andere Völker.
ORIANA FALLACI: Zum Beispiel?
GADDAFI: Italien etwa ist ein kapitalistisches Land mit einer Klassengesellschaft, das von den Amerikanern wie eine Kolonie beherrscht wird. ORIANA FALLACI: Inwiefern?
GADDAFI: Es gibt keine Sowjetbasen in Italien. Ihr habt keine Sowjetbasen.
ORIANA FALLACI: Gott sei Dank. Die hätten uns gerade noch gefehlt.
GADDAFI: Aber ihr habt amerikanische Basen. Und das ist Kolonialismus.
ORIANA FALLACI: Und wenn man sowjetische Basen hat, ist das nicht auch Kolonialismus?
GADDAFI: Ich stelle nur fest, daß ihr amerikanische und keine sowjetischen Basen have.
Oriana Fallaci: We also have the largest communist party in the West.
Gaddafi: The Italian Communists are, not Soviet.
Oriana Fallaci: So you bear in mind that it is only imperialism on one side, on America's side?
Gaddafi: I know that there are two major powers, not just one, and that there is much competition between the two. But I also know that the Russians are our friends.
Oriana Fallaci: Then the question would be which side they were standing in the case of a world war, probably superfluous?
Gaddafi: I belong to the Arab nation and to the non-aligned. So I'll be on the side of the Arab nation and the NAM.
Oriana Fallaci: If the non-aligned countries such as Yugoslavia and there are those such as your country. What the Arab nation is concerned, which is still very divided.
Gaddafi: Nevertheless, we are one nation. Sadat is not on our side, but the Egyptian people, it is, and Egypt is a part of us. In a world war, the Arab nation have only one interest, above and beyond any differences that separate us today.
Oriana Fallaci: So this would be the meaning of those two thousand five hundred tanks, which provided Moscow you: Sadat to remember that for a Weltkrieges Ägypten ein Teil der arabischen Nation ist?
GADDAFI: Jedermann weiß, daß Sadat gegen Libyen Krieg führen will. Jedermann weiß, daß Sadat Waffen an der libyschen Grenze anhäuft. Jedermann weiß, daß die Amerikaner Sadat beschützen. Sadat steht an der Spitze der Schwarzen Liste der arabischen Länder, die seine Feinde sind.
ORIANA FALLACI: Und wer steht an zweiter Stelle?
GADDAFI: Der Sudan, Somalia und Oman sind Anwärter, aber auf der Konferenz von Tunis sah ihre Haltung schon ein bißchen verändert aus. Saudi-Arabien hingegen steht auf der Seite der Länder, die Ägypten boykottieren, ebenso die Emirate, wenngleich letztere es have not yet managed to break free from the influence of the enemies of the Arab nation and to change their systems of government.
Oriana Fallaci: Some time ago you launched a bizarre threat: they would a member of the Warsaw Pact. Is the threat to?
Gaddafi: Yes. If things reach a crisis point, Americans should press us unbearable, yes, I am one? consider such a step.
Oriana Fallaci: Colonel, you really know how unpopular you are?
Gaddafi: I am not loved by those who are against the masses, and by those who are against freedom. Who for the masses and for die Freiheit kämpft, liebt mich immer und überall.
ORIANA FALLACI: Also gut, aber sehen wir doch, was man über Sie sagt, wessen man Sie beschuldigt. Wo sollen wir anfangen? Vielleicht bei Ihrer Freundschaft zu jenem blutigen Verbrecher Idi Amin? Die Leute fragen: Wie kann Oberst Gaddafi der Freund eines solchen Menschen sein?
GADDAFI: Was ist so überraschend dabei? Alle Nachrichten über Amin sind falsch, alles was Sie über Amin sagen, ist falsch und künstlich, die Folge zionistischer Propaganda. Zudem ist alles, was Sie über Sadat wissen, falsch und künstlich, sogar was Sie über Israel wissen. Sie wissen nichts. Sie Westler wissen gar nichts. Anstatt gegen Amin zu sprechen, sollten Sie Nyerere verurteilen, der Uganda besetzt hat. Sie sollten Frankreich verurteilen, weil es die Zentralafrikanische Republik besetzt hält.
ORIANA FALLACI: Nochmals: Wie können Sie, ein selbsternannter Verteidiger des Rechts, der Freiheit und der Revolution, diesem Schwein: Amin Gastfreundschaft und Schutz bieten? Zudem, warum haben Sie Uganda nicht geholfen, sich dieses Schweines Amin zu entledigen, anstatt Amin zu helfen, Uganda durch Terror zu beherrschen?
GADDAFI: Hatte ich, habe ich das Recht, mich in die Angelegenheiten anderer Regime einzumischen, sie zu stürzen? Habe ich Ihnen nicht gerade gesagt, daß diejenigen, die solches tun, verurteilt werden müssen?
ORIANA FALLACI: So ist es an der Zeit, Sie daran zu erinnern, daß Sie sich, mit dem Vorwand, unterdrückten Völkern zu helfen -- die übrigens nur dann unterdrückt sind, wenn es Ihnen paßt -, sehr in die Angelegenheiten anderer Länder einmischen, im Tschad, zum Beispiel.
GADDAFI: Die Bevölkerung des Tschad ist gegen die französischen Truppen! Wir haben das Recht, uns im Tschad einzumischen, um das Volk im Kampf gegen die französischen Truppen zu unterstützen! Dasselbe Recht wie in Uganda, gegen Nyerere, als er mit seinen Truppen anmarschierte.
ORIANA FALLACI: Entschuldigen Sie, Herr Oberst: Zuerst sagen Sie, daß Sie dem Volk Ugandas nicht geholfen haben, sich to get rid of Amin, because you have no right to interfere in the affairs of the country. Then you say you wanted to help the people of Chad, because you have the right to intervene, first you say one thing, then say the opposite. To the relationship's sake, I should remind you that you have been to Uganda before Amin's war with Tanzania. Why were you there?
Gaddafi: Because Amin against Israel was and is! Because Amin was the first African president, who had the courage to throw the Israelis out of his country. Since Amin is a Muslim! It is clear that I was a friend of Amin and I am. Amin's internal policy does not interest me. What interests me Amin's position in international relations. They know nothing about realism. Did you already hear anyone talk about realism?
Oriana Fallaci: Yes, Henry Kissinger. For example, if he defends the shah of Iran as you Amin, or when he granted him hospitality as you Amin. And to your question: If a tyrant who massacred his people, the friendship of Colonel Gaddafi deserves, just because the hate the Jews, was Colonel Qaddafi probably born 40 years too late. They should have to live when Hitler murdered the Jews by the millions. Yes, Hitler would have been a very good friend for you, better even than Amin.
Gaddafi: The situation is different today. Now hold the Jews occupied the land of the Palestinians. The same Jews were in Uganda at the head of administration and the military. Their goal was to form an alliance with the African States, Arab against the nation. Their hostility toward amine proves imperialist sentiments and hostility to the Arab revolution against Palestine and Islam.
Oriana Fallaci, we leave the topic! But what with Bokassa? Do you accept it, roasted and eaten the children have?
Gaddafi: Bokassa ... Now, Bokassa is the same case as Amin. This means that the private personality of Bokassa and Amin does not need to please me, I might even against their internal Politik sein. Die Intervention Frankreichs und Tansanias mißfällt mir noch mehr. Doch am meisten mißfällt mir die Unterstützung, die ihr Westler Israel gewährt.
ORIANA FALLACI: Was hat Israel mit Bokassa zu tun, der Kinder brät und ißt?
GADDAFI: Es hat etwas damit zu tun. Denn es ist Ihre Haltung, die die Fedajin dazu treibt, zu sterben und Israelis in Palästina zu töten. Ihre Waffenlieferungen an Israel sind es. Ihre Weigerung, die Palästinenser zu verstehen, ihnen zu helfen! Ihr Westler seid es, die bewirken, daß der Krieg die einzige Lösung ist.
ORIANA FALLACI: Ich habe den Eindruck, daß Sie den Westen meinen, wenn Sie Amerika und Israel . Say Just as Khomeini. In other words, I think your hatred of America and the Jews is really a hatred of the West. Just as in the case of Khomeini. Do not you remember that we move this back a thousand years, in the times of the Crusades?
Gaddafi: Yes, and debt you have, the Americans, the West. Even a thousand years ago it was your fault, that of the West. They were always those who have massacred us. Past and present.
Oriana Fallaci: But who slaughtered because, now, when?
Gaddafi: Libya was invaded Italy, or Italy in Libya? And today, as then you are the aggressor against us. To another Way in another system, for example, by supporting Israel, by the resistance against the Arab unity and our revolution, in that you look down on Islam and call us fanatics.
We have been extremely patient with you. We have accepted your provocations long enough. If we had behaved not as we would be taken against you a thousand times in the war. We have not done so because we believe that violence is the last resort for survival, and because we have always been on the side of civilization. But they were poor barbarians, primitive and wild animals ...
Oriana Fallaci: Why have the remains buried in Libya, Italian Soldiers can be sent out of the country?
Gaddafi: Why have you expelled from Italy by the Arabs who had been there for 250 years and be liable to you passed the light of civilization? Why have they expelled from Spain, where they had been with the same intention for eight hundred years? Because they were invaders, you will respond. Well, I had exactly the same reason: because the Italian. Soldiers were invaders.
Oriana Fallaci: The bones of the dead? Invaders?
Gaddafi: Certainly. And yet we, in our case, behaved with great decency. To show that we intended no violence, we have informed Italy that It could pick up the remains of his soldiers, if they wished. Otherwise they would be dug by bulldozers pushed away and been.
Oriana Fallaci: I see. And what happened to the grave stones? Is it not true that you used as building material for a cafeteria?
Gaddafi: Nonsense. Lies. This is exactly the kind of messages that show the hatred you have for us. And since you have raised this point, let me say that more bodies of Italians will soon be deported from Libya. Not only the graves of Italians who came here in 1911, blocked the plans of the revolution, including those of soldiers from the Second World War. And many of these Graves are exactly in the way of roads, highways, residential areas, parks, such as in Tobruk and Benghazi. If you do not withdraw, they will be dug up by the bulldozers.
Oriana Fallaci: There is another reason why you are unpopular in the world, your hobby, to finance international terrorism. As long as someone is willing to shoot and kill, you are apparently willing to offer him protection and assistance. Wherever it may be, in every part of the world: the IRA in Ireland, the Black Panthers in America, the Red Brigades in Italy ... Is not that right?
Gaddafi: This decision is not based on facts. It is a verdict that the Zionist propaganda comes, and it reflects your hatred of us because we support the Palestinian cause.
Oriana Fallaci: What do you think of the Red Brigades?
Gaddafi: I believe that such phenomena of capitalist society in the west, a result that this movement is an expression of rejection of a society that must be overthrown. Whether they now call themselves Red Brigades or hippies or Beatles or the children of God. And although I am against the kidnapping of people and aircraft, I do not wish to interfere in what they do.
Oriana Fallaci: You have not answered the charge that you support the Red Brigades. Who supplies the Red Brigades and the Soviet weapons that are found running with them? Could it be that some of the weapons with which to provide the Palestinians, are directed elsewhere?
Gaddafi: What you say, I will not stop for a moment like this to help the Palestinians.
Oriana Fallaci: do not respond. I asked you ... Gaddafi: I do not care. Oriana Fallaci: Are you saying that you do not care if the weapons that you provide to the Palestinians, are used to kill citizens of a country that is not at war with you?
Gaddafi: You want to dissuade me it seems that to help Palestinians. We are not responsible for what happens to the weapons we supply the Palestinians. We give the Palestinians because we believe in their cause and it is our responsibility to help them. What happens after that is not my business. If I am to be sentenced indirectly, I prefer to be charged directly. But you have no proof.
Oriana Fallaci: Well, we come to another question. Colonel, the terrorists that you are so resilient want to destroy a society whose leaders to maintain excellent relations, for example to Gianni Agnelli.
Gaddafi: Gianni who?
Oriana Fallaci: Agnelli, Gianni Agnelli, president of Fiat. Gaddafi: Fiat? My company! Oriana Fallaci: Yes, your company, Fiat. Agnelli ...
Gaddafi: I do not know him. Oriana Fallaci: We Agnelli not your partner?
Gaddafi: No, it's not my job to know him. It is the object of my officials, employees of my rank, the Libyan Foreign Trade Bank.
Oriana Fallaci: sir, please excuse me if I laugh so loud. Gianni Agnelli not really know you, your business partner?
Gaddafi: No, I do not know him.
Oriana Fallaci: You really have never seen his picture, never heard his name?
GADDAFI: Nie. Es interessiert mich nicht, es geht mich nichts an. Ich habe anderes zu tun, als mir über die Namen meiner Partner oder der Rankenwelt Gedanken zu machen.
ORIANA FALLACI: Jetzt ist klar: Sie scherzen.
GADDAFI: Keineswegs. Sie müssen begreifen, daß ich kein Präsident oder Minister bin. Ich vergeude meine Zeit nicht mit solchen Bagatellen. Mich interessieren Theorie, Freiheit, Kampf und mein Grünes Buch. Ich dachte, Sie wären hierher gekommen, um mit mir über mein Grünes Buch zu sprechen. Statt dessen befragen Sie mich seit Beginn unserer Zusammenkunft immer nur über den Iran, über Botschaften und Diplomaten, die als Geiseln festgehalten werden, Idi Amin und like. I have answered your questions out of politeness. Open, however, admitted to bore me these questions deeply.
Oriana Fallaci: Keep these issues less important than your green book?
Gaddafi: Certainly. If you want to get a picture of me, you have to ask me about my open book and after the revolution.
Oriana Fallaci: Well, we talk about the revolution. What do you mean by revolution? I will never forget that the Greek dictator Papadopaulos spoke of revolution, even Pinochet and Mussolini did.
Gaddafi: Revolution, when it is done by the masses, if it is a people's revolution. But selbst wenn eine Revolution von anderen im Namen der Massen angezettelt wird, ist es eine Revolution.
ORIANA FALLACI: Aber was im September 1969 in Libyen geschah, war doch keine Revolution, sondern ein Staatsstreich.
GADDAFI: Ja, danach aber wurde es eine Revolution. Ich tat den ersten Schritt, die Arbeiter machten die Revolution, indem sie die Fabriken besetzten und Partner wurden, die monarchische Regierungsform abschafften und Volkskomitees gründeten, kurzum, indem sie sich selbst befreiten. Das gleiche taten die Studenten. Heute zählt in Libyen in der Tat nur das Volk.
ORIANA FALLACI: Wirklich? Wie ist es dann zu erklären, daß man überall nur Ihr Bild sieht? Selbst an der Fassade the Catholic Church, which now serves as storage space is a huge picture of you placed in military uniform. In my hotel even pure silver plates are sold with your image in the middle.
Gaddafi: What have I to do with it? The people have asked for it. What should I do to prevent the people from? Can I prevent them?
Oriana Fallaci: Oh yes! They could. They ban so much. You do nothing else but to ban. And when you do this, not your personality cult can stop? Why be on TV constantly sung paeans to you? Just look again at those screaming masses who raise their fists and shouting: "Gaddafi Gaddafi!"
Gaddafi: What can I do? Oriana Fallaci: As a child I experienced the same with Mussolini.
Gaddafi: This is a fundamental charge that requires a fundamental answer. Hitler and Mussolini, exploited the support of the masses to govern the people. Khomeini and I use the other hand, the support of the masses to enable the people in a position to govern themselves. I urge the masses to constantly govern themselves. I declare to my people: "If you love me, stop me and ruled yourselves" That is why I love the people. It loves me, because I am the exact opposite of Hitler, who said: "I will do anything for you." The people love me, because I tell him: "Do it yourself"
Oriana Fallaci: If the people you love so much, why do you need so much protection? Before I came here, I was stopped three times by armed soldiers and searched as if I were a criminal. At the entrance is even a tank whose gun on the street is aimed.
Gaddafi: Do not forget that this is an army camp.
Oriana Fallaci: That is correct. But why do you live in an army camp?
Gaddafi: Most of the time I spend here, not at all. But what do you think, what is all this protection?
Oriana Fallaci: Because you are afraid of being killed. It has been attempted this so many times.
Gaddafi: This is a ridiculous propaganda to publish your papers to me and I laugh a lot. But even if there are some murder trials have been, how would you explain that?
Oriana Fallaci: The fact that you are not in your country are very popular.
Gaddafi: First you say that I have the support of the masses, and then you claim that I protect myself too much. They contradict each other yet.
Oriana Fallaci: No, no. The two sides have one thing in common: fear. The people clap for fear and protect yourself from fear.
Gaddafi: This seems a very strange Conclusion to be just like your claim that I was a dictator.
Oriana Fallaci: If you do not regard themselves as a dictator, and not as President, not even as a minister, then you say what you really are?
Gaddafi: I am the leader of the revolution. This shows me that you have not read my green book.
Oriana Fallaci: On the contrary, I read it. It does not take very long, as you know, be 15 minutes, so thin it is. My compact is greater than your green book.
Gaddafi: You talk like Sadat. He says it fit into a hand.
Oriana Fallaci, Do it well. Say you have Is this all your written?
Gaddafi: Yes, yes.
Oriana Fallaci: And how long did it take?
Gaddafi, many years. Before I had found the final solution, I had to think much about the history of humanity, about conflict and about the present.
Oriana Fallaci: And how did you come to the conclusion that democracy is a dictatorship, the Parliament a fraud, a mockery of elections? There are a lot in your book, which I do not understand.
Gaddafi: Because you have not read it properly and did not try to understand it.
Oriana Fallaci: Tell: Does freedom of space in your System?
GADDAFI: Freiheit? Was für eine Freiheit? Dies ist Freiheit. Die einzige wahre wirkliche Freiheit. Wozu fragen Sie mich so etwas?
ORIANA FALLACI: Weil ich voriges Jahr gehört habe, daß Sie 40 Offiziere erschossen haben, die Ihr System nicht mochten. Dann las ich, daß Sie 1977 nochmals 55 Offiziere aus dem gleichen Grunde erschossen haben. Und schließlich las ich, daß Sie vor einigen Monaten in Bengasi Studenten öffentlich aufgehängt haben, weil sie genen Ihr Grünes Buch rebelliert hatten.
GADDAFI: Wegen dieser Dinge verliere ich noch das Vertrauen in den Westen. Warum schreiben sie so falsche Sachen? Wer steckt dahinter?
ORIANA FALLACI: Wer white. Perhaps there are jealous people. Sir, tell me: Do you really change that your philosophy, this little green book, the world?
Gaddafi: Undoubtedly, yes, without a doubt. The Green Paper is a product of the struggle of humanity. The Green Paper points the people the way to emancipation. The Green Paper is the gospel, the new doctrine, the doctrine of the new era, the era of the masses.
Oriana Fallaci: They are not very modest, is not it? can No, I'm not modest, because I can withstand the attacks of the whole world and because the Green Paper, the problems of mankind and society:
Gaddafi has dissolved.
Oriana Fallaci: So are you a kind of Messiah, the new Messiah?
Gaddafi: I do not see myself that way, but I repeat, the Green Paper is the new gospel. Your Gospel states: "In the beginning was the Word." The Green Book is the Word. One of his words can destroy or save the world. Carter can lead any war against us: in order to defend himself, the Third World needs only my green book, my word. One word, and the whole world could explode, all values \u200b\u200bmay change, their weight, their volume everywhere and forever.
Oriana Fallaci: Do you believe in God?
Gaddafi: Of course, why ask me something.
Oriana Fallaci: Because I thought you were God.
DER SPIEGEL 50/1979
